13/09/2019

'Without pure science, you can't do applied science,' says Ramos.

IMPA researcher Vinicius Ramos was the interviewee this week in the Nexo Jornal series “Brazilian Scientists You Need to Know .” In the interview, the mathematician spoke about his research routine, his academic trajectory, the support from the Serrapilheira Institute, the field of mathematics he has been focusing on, and the challenges faced by national scientists in the current context of the country.

When questioned about the practical application of his project, Ramos commented on the value of pure science for society. “If you look at the last 100 years of pure mathematics, you'll realize how extremely applicable it is. If it weren't for the pure mathematics of the 19th and early 20th centuries, we wouldn't have quantum physics and relativity, and consequently, we wouldn't have satellites, GPS, or cell phones. If you stop doing pure science, you quickly reach a point where you can no longer do applied science,” he stated.

Reproduction of the interview from Nexo Jornal:

'If you stop doing pure science, you can no longer do applied science.'
September 12, 2019

Accustomed to spending most of his time inside his head, solving problems that most mortals can't even understand, mathematician Vinicius Ramos, from IMPA, talks about the difficulty of avoiding distractions these days, from smartphones to government cuts. To reach the Institute of Pure and Applied Mathematics, IMPA, you have to climb the green mountains behind the Rio de Janeiro Botanical Garden. The beautiful modernist building is nestled in the lushness of the Tijuca Forest, which provides shade and views for one of the best mathematics institutes in the world. It was there that I met Vinicius Ramos, in a room with a table, a computer and two whiteboards — one white and one black — everything a pure mathematician needs to work.

Vinicius taught me that climbing mountains—figuratively speaking—is the only way to do serious mathematics. Like a mountaineer, a leading mathematician needs patience to climb towards the most difficult problems and detachment to endure the solitude up there. He, for example, can't even explain his research to his own wife: "There are about 50 people in the world who could read an article I write." I'm definitely not among them.

Vinicius is one of the emerging stars of IMPA, the institution that also produced Artur Avila, winner of the world's most prestigious mathematics prize, the Fields Medal, in 2014. IMPA is a rare case of a Brazilian research institution that is not far behind any other, anywhere in the world. Benefiting from the relatively low costs of doing mathematics and a tradition of professors dedicated to excellence and teaching, the institute attracts talent from all over the planet—half of its researchers are foreign. Now, for the first time, IMPA, which depends on federal funding, faces a serious threat of financial crisis. On a stormy afternoon over the Atlantic Forest outside, we talked about abstraction and reality, pure science and application, and about how a mathematician spends R$ 1 million.

Scientists from Brazil
Who: Vinicius Ramos, 30 years old
What: Mathematician, researching billiards and the geometry of a space where things move.
Where: at the Institute of Pure and Applied Mathematics, on the edge of the Tijuca Forest, in Rio de Janeiro.
How: by spending a lot of time inside your own head, in front of a blackboard.

I'm starting all these interviews with the same question. I want to know what you want to discover in your career.
VINICIUS RAMOS Okay. I'll see if I can answer [laughs]. In mathematics, the problems are very abstract and you don't know if what you think is true or not, so it's difficult to imagine the future. But I do have some big dreams. One of them has to do with billiards — in mathematics, billiards are trajectories, like a beam of light reflecting off mirrors at the edges of a space, or a billiard ball bouncing off the edges of the table and other balls. I would like to try to solve open problems in this area, billiards, using my specialty, which is symplectic geometry. Symplectic geometry is quite abstract, quite complicated to explain, but it has to do with understanding the geometry of a space where movement occurs — taking into account both the position and the speed of that displacement. My research has been directed towards understanding what billiard theory can tell us about symplectic geometry, but my current project is to go in the opposite direction: what symplectic geometry, something very abstract, can tell us about the dynamics of billiards, something totally concrete.

Let me ask a question, then, that I imagine mathematicians hate the most: what for?
VINICIUS RAMOS [Laughs] I think that's a valid question, and one I get asked all the time. But the answer isn't different from what many applied scientists would give: you don't do science, research, just to generate direct value—a technology, a cure for a disease. You do research to understand something. The goal is comprehension, it's knowledge. In pure mathematics, we ask questions because we want to understand something. Once we understand it, it's no longer up to us to decide whether that discovery will translate into a new technology or not. In the end, if you look at the last 100 years of pure mathematics, you'll realize that it's extremely applicable. If it weren't for the pure mathematics of the 19th and early 20th centuries, we wouldn't have quantum physics and relativity, and consequently, we wouldn't have satellites, GPS, or cell phones. If you stop doing pure science, you quickly reach a point where you can no longer do applied science.

But don't you keep thinking about how everything is applied?
VINICIUS RAMOS No. I don't think about real-life problems and the math I need to solve them: I think about mathematics and problems within mathematics—from a very specific area of mathematics.

Where are you from?
VINICIUS RAMOS I'm from Rio, I grew up in Rio. I come from a very typical, very middle-class family. My mother came from the suburbs, from the large Méier neighborhood. My father came from the interior of Espírito Santo and grew up in the vicinity of [Morro do] Alemão, on the border between the suburbs and the favela. He's a dentist, she was an employee of Banco do Brasil, they had some means, before I was born they moved to Tijuca, where I was born, an only child. I was lucky enough to study at the Colégio de Aplicação of UFRJ (Federal University of Rio de Janeiro), which is a very good public school—one of the few federal public schools. I always had everything I needed, but never more. And I always really liked mathematics. I even started early at UFRJ—I had a professor who invited me to go there during high school.

How old were you?
VINICIUS RAMOS I started at UFRJ when I was 14. Brazilian schools, being part-time, offer a lot of flexibility. I would go to school in the morning and in the afternoon you have to invent something to do, right?

And were you doing this because it was fun for you or because you were thinking about your career as a mathematician?
VINICIUS RAMOS No, because I liked it. I did other things too—music, sports—but I did math because I liked it and the math from school was very easy for me. I don't want to overemphasize this part because I think a lot of teenagers end up starting early and it doesn't always work out. In my case, it did.

But there is a pattern, isn't there? Mathematical talents tend to express themselves very early.
VINICIUS RAMOS Yes. But it turns out that many mathematical talents who show promise early on don't have the stamina to become serious mathematicians who do serious research. And there are many serious mathematicians who didn't show as much talent at such a young age. This ends up putting a lot of pressure on a 15-year-old, who is sometimes good at math but doesn't want to make the decision to become a mathematician. It's interesting to give a taste of mathematics to those who are interested, but not to force anything. I think it's good for a person to do what they want, if they want to—not because of pressure to be the best of all, or because of parental wishes.

And you started college at 14?
VINICIUS RAMOS No, officially I started at 16. The master's program at UFRJ, in this case.

Oh, you went straight to the master's program?
VINICIUS RAMOS : Undergraduate studies are more bureaucratic, they have all the rules of the Ministry of Education. But in a Master's program, the coordinator might let you enroll. This isn't uncommon in mathematics. Here at IMPA, bringing in young people without undergraduate degrees has been done for a long time. Later, I wanted to do a doctorate outside of Brazil and went to Berkeley, California [University of California], which is a great place, where a lot is happening culturally. I stayed there for a good while, I enjoyed it a lot. When I arrived there, I had no idea what I was going to study. I tried many different things and ended up in symplectic geometry. I found a professor I really liked and went into that area.

How old were you when you finished your Master's degree?
VINICIUS RAMOS At 18. And the doctorate at 24.

And there you became an expert in symplectic geometry. Is that going to be your field for the rest of your career?
VINICIUS RAMOS I believe so. Of course, you have areas that become exhausted, and then, to continue producing, you have to move into others. But I think I'll always stay in geometry in some way. I believe that symplectic geometry is big enough to fill my whole life. It's a relatively new area that is developing a lot.

What is the size of the symplectic geometry community?
VINICIUS RAMOS I would say that, of truly active people, there are fewer than 500. People who would attend the same conference, who would listen to one of my lectures, maybe around 200. People in my field—who are interested in what I do, who might read an article I write—I would say about 50.

And your articles aren't really accessible to more than 50 people?
VINICIUS RAMOS No. And that's common in mathematics. Few people write articles that can be read by a large audience.

So, some mathematicians manage to unify areas of study and communicate with a slightly wider audience?
VINICIUS RAMOS Yes, if I manage to carry out this project of combining billiards with symplectic geometry, perhaps these articles will have a wider reach and interest more people.

Well, I tried reading your articles and I'm clearly nowhere near being one of those 50. With most of the scientists I've interviewed, I read their papers, and at least I can understand what they're doing…
VINICIUS RAMOS That's right. Mathematics is like a mountain range. It's as if you had to climb the entire Himalayas, and the problems are at the top. If you don't climb that mountain, you can't even see what needs to be explored, where the lakes and trails are. So it's very difficult for an outsider to understand what I do.

And you spend a good part of your time living in an abstract world. Isn't it very frustrating not being able to explain that world?
VINICIUS RAMOS Yes, that's the most frustrating thing. It's very difficult to talk about what I do with other people. For my wife, for example, I can't explain it. She has an idea of the names I use, the "buzzwords," the keywords, but she can't understand. She asks me what I did today, I say I worked on the project with so-and-so, but we can't discuss what we did. That's a little frustrating. But mathematics is so beautiful and interesting that it's okay.

Well, you just won an award. The Serrapilheira Institute is going to give you R$1 million to develop a project. How are you going to spend it?
VINICIUS RAMOS: That's a lot of money for research that doesn't require equipment. I'll use it to hire people—at least one postdoc to work with me and develop their research here in Brazil. I'll buy equipment—maybe a computer for that person—travel to conferences. The most important thing is to bring people here. Mathematics is very collaborative, and it's very rare anywhere in the world to have a local team in a given area because the communities are very small; everyone ends up at a different university. I collaborate with my advisor in Berkeley, and I have other collaborators in Santa Cruz, California, in France, and in Israel. The collaboration networks are very international, so for the research to progress, you need to travel.

So everyone has a blackboard like yours here, and the colleague comes to visit and ends up scribbling along with you?
VINICIUS RAMOS Exactly. Of course, nowadays we have a lot of meetings via Skype — I have one a week with my colleagues. But it doesn't replace in-person meetings. When my colleague from Germany came and spent a week with me in my office, we made a lot of progress.

With that money, you'll be able to hire someone for a few years, right?

VINICIUS RAMOS Yes, for at least two years, and with a competitive salary. I should hire someone from abroad—the field is very small in Brazil—fresh out of their doctorate. The norm in mathematics is to finish the doctorate, do one or two post-doctoral fellowships, until you have a permanent job as a professor. There's a website called Math Jobs; I'll place an ad there. The salary is what CAPES (Brazilian Federal Agency for Support and Evaluation of Graduate Education) defines for "excellent post-doctoral work," which is reasonably competitive with what they would have in Europe.

How much is it?
VINICIUS RAMOS: Around R $ 8,000. That's great for Brazil, but if you convert it to dollars, it's not very attractive for someone in the United States. If you offer the salary set by CNPq for a doctorate, which hasn't been updated in many years — R$ 4,100 — it's very difficult to find someone.

You spent a good amount of time living in California and then returned to Brazil. Why did you come back?

VINICIUS RAMOS I like Brazil, I really like the idea of contributing to Brazilian science. And IMPA is also a wonderful place. My wife is American, so sometimes it's a little difficult for her, being away from her family. So the question always comes back of whether we'll go back there someday. We don't know what will happen to science in Brazil, many resources are dwindling. I have Serrapilheira, but it's no use having money if none of my colleagues have anything, with the cuts to CNPq, Capes, and Faperj.

And what about IMPA, which is a federal institute?

VINICIUS RAMOS It seems that it also has a contingent budget, the trend is towards cuts. It is an institute entirely maintained by the government, very vulnerable to budget changes, like federal universities.

You probably know most of Brazil's leading mathematicians. What's happening? Are they leaving?
VINICIUS RAMOS Yes. There's a brain drain happening. In my field, for example, before me there were three people doing the kind of symplectic geometry that I do. Two of them left last year.

There's also a discourse from the Federal Government that prioritizes what has practical application. The target has been the humanities, but the criticism could extend to pure mathematics as well, right?
VINICIUS RAMOS We have a kind of shield, which is engineering. Mathematics seems to have a slightly higher status because of the applied sciences. But it's not so different from the humanities—we are also interested in knowledge, regardless of its applications. If there's a government that sees no value in pure science, that also offends mathematics.

What is the biggest challenge of being a mathematician?
VINICIUS RAMOS For me, it's the loneliness. You work a lot alone, and I'm a person who likes to talk.

And what's the best part of the job?
VINICIUS RAMOS The best part is when I discover something new, unexpected.

Does it happen often?
VINICIUS RAMOS [Thinks] No. Less than I would like. Something truly surprising happens at most twice a year. Recently, something happened. I was at a conference in Montreal, a colleague asked me a question, I started thinking about it, and the next day I discovered something I really didn't expect. That's a moment.

Did that question stay in your head until the next day?
VINICIUS RAMOS Did not leave.

Is it harder to be a mathematician these days, with a cell phone in your pocket?
VINICIUS RAMOS It's a double-edged sword. On the one hand, you can research everything and see all the new mathematics that comes out on the same day. You publish an article and the whole field reads it on the same day. In the old days you sent letters. On the other hand, it's a huge distraction. I learned from my doctoral advisor that, to really do mathematics, you have to turn off the computer, be without your cell phone.

What has changed between the expectations you had when you started studying mathematics as a teenager, and what you know to be true today?
VINICIUS RAMOS When you're younger, you hear about these few mathematicians who became world icons, and you think you're going to win the Fields Medal, that you're going to be the next Artur Ávila. And of course, most of them aren't. And it's okay if they aren't, because there's mathematics for everyone. You don't need to be a Fields Medalist to do interesting mathematics.

Any advice for someone who hates math or for someone who has a child who hates it?

VINICIUS RAMOS I think the first piece of advice I would give to parents is to stop badmouthing math. When your child doesn't understand something, don't say, "That's boring for me too." If your child is learning, it's an opportunity for adults to learn as well. Don't try to see the right answer as the goal of mathematics; the process is much more important than the answer. It's very easy to teach math poorly—as a series of rules you have to follow. What needs to be done is to teach children and teenagers to think. There's no point in teaching people to manipulate symbols if they don't understand why they're doing it.

And any advice for someone who wants to follow your path and become a mathematician?

VINICIUS RAMOS The advice is to study. Try to learn as much as possible. There's no shortcut—you have to climb the mountain, there's no helicopter. It's a lot of time sitting in a chair reading.

'Without pure science, you can't do applied science,' says Ramos.

'If you stop doing pure science, you can no longer do applied science.' September 12, 2019

'If you stop doing pure science, you can no longer do applied science.'
September 12, 2019